Curse

UberRusty · Sep 05, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

First off, I'm not even sure this is in the right section. If not, please move the topic.

Secondly, if Anet is already adding a toggle to Observer mode, then my whole post is wasted. Here I go.

Why can't a toggle be added onto Observer mode? It keeps the people that DON'T want to show their skills happy, and the people that DO want to show their builds, can show their builds and gain maybe a little more respect from the other players.

Now, I was tuning into WoC last night and I KNOW, I KNOW, that if you can go through being observed, make up lots, and LOTS of builds that work and you do well with them as a team, then you are truly in a skilled guild that deserves to be recognized.

But let's put it this way. You spend 4 hours, trying hard to make a build that wins HoH. You win, oh GLORIOUS GLORIOUS MOMENT SO GOOD OMG EXPLOSIVE EUPHORIA OMG, and then people just go and observe you. Next day, your build is the flavour of the day. And 90% of those people who observe you won't give credit to your guild, they'll just copy and use it to compete in HoH.

For example, some would say that Ensign fleshed out, or practically made the E/Mo Smiters all the rage. But fact is, 90% of those E/Mo Smiters don't have a damn clue in Hell who Ensign is, and if they did, they wouldn't care.

That is exactly what will happen to your glorious guild build that won HoH a moment ago. People will just JUMP onto observer mode, jot down your skills, maybe even make a few improvements you couldn't see while spending your precious time making this build!

A simple toggle can solve this problem. Sooner or later, the skilled guilds that actually stand a chance of winning in HoH will figure out your build after repeated battles, and you'll have to create a new one. But at least it isn't an everyday process.

Kai Nui · Sep 05, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

If you have observer mode you'll be able to see what skills everyone is doing unless they get rid of the status bar, animations, and skill slot area while people are fighting. The good solution:

Make everything just display what attribute it is. Instead of showing a certain technique show the attribute. So if the monk is healing someone it will say and show the same thing to all observers which is: Healing Attribute or Protection Attribute for example then show the basic same thing for all techniques if that makes sense. Heal other and Orison of healing will look exactly the same... if you catch my drift

/signed

smurfhunter · Sep 05, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

yes if you tried to not show the skills people can still pick up on the animations etc. i say just let them watch, sheesh they do it anyway. all it does is save you time. as a tomb-er myself if i come across a build were losing against i just stop fighting and try to watch what they do (i throw in some emotes like /beg /pout just so my teamates dont think im a sore loser and went afk or something). and to tell you the truth i didnt pick up on anything trully spectacular yet

so to really stop people from copying you would have to get rid of ALL animations, censor the forums, etc. i think its just part of the game, go with the flow

and anyway 90% of the time its based on player skill, so you can go copy the sB strategy or whatever and you will probably suck either way

the game is (supposed to be) about skill not hoarding info.

knives · Sep 05, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

x Local o Team x Trade x Emotes x Observers

^ An option to allow observers or don't allow observers in the chat window.

SlY_DeMoN · Sep 05, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I hate when you think of something really cool and suddenly everyone knows it.

you work hard to find good combos

/signed

Sleet · Sep 05, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

observer mode only for guild members and their maches + with permission to others (turn off to block obsmode for others)

UberRusty · Sep 05, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

If you have observer mode you'll be able to see what skills everyone is doing unless they get rid of the status bar, animations, and skill slot area while people are fighting.

Yes, but it is harder to pick up on animations than it is to pick up on names of skills that are written right at the top, just for you. But if Anet could get rid of animations in observer mode, then by all means give a toggle for it.

Quote:

the game is (supposed to be) about skill not hoarding info.

It takes skill to make a build that is unique and works. Observer mode = Hoarding Info.

Damon Windwalker · Sep 05, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

But let's put it this way. You spend 4 hours, trying hard to make a build that wins HoH. You win, oh GLORIOUS GLORIOUS MOMENT SO GOOD OMG EXPLOSIVE EUPHORIA OMG, and then people just go and observe you. Next day, your build is the flavour of the day. And 90% of those people who observe you won't give credit to your guild, they'll just copy and use it to compete in HoH.

You forgot "...and then people start spamming to forum boards that the build needs to be nerfed."

Chad · Sep 05, 2005, 11:25 PM // 23:25

I don't see what the problem is with seeing other teams' builds. After all, this is Guild Wars, not Build Wars. Teams that are truly good can have their build mimicked 100%, but still dominate because they know what they're doing and are more experienced and skilled.

Besides, even if there was no spectator mode ever integrated, other teams are going to see your build and copy it if it works, and then other teams will see their copied build and copy it, and so on.

Mithie · Sep 05, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Wait, there's an observer mode?!

How do you use it?

GreatLich · Sep 05, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

But isn't there already a toggle for this? ctrl+shift+h (iirc) to toggle the HUD, my guess is that Observer Mode will come with this option switched on by default and that it can't be untoggled... Your suggestion is so..uhm obvious, for lack of a better word, that is hard to see not implemented. I assumed Observer Mode to work like this when I first heard about it. Apparently there are some doubts?

I don't consider the visual/auditory clues from skills used to be "sensitive info" because those are always given to your opponents. I could see no reason to hide these from observers. ( unless programs like Fraps are a violation of the EULA o.O )
And just to add: I am as of yet unable to match all skill names with their respective icons from memory, especially those skills I don't use myself.

@ Mithie: Observer Mode is (soon?) to be implemented, as a means of watching like guild battles or HoH matches... (when ObsMode comes I will finaly throw out my television ^^ )

Spartan2 · Sep 05, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

The only thing I think observer mode should show is the names of the people involved, their health bars, skill animations, and that is all, censor everything else. Make it so it is almost like the observers are watching you at Ctrl+Shift+H, just with names-only showing up.

If it is like that, then /sign.

dargon · Sep 05, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Given that observer mode isn't even in the game yet and the only people who have seen it are nodoubt under heavy NDA right now, speculation as to what it needs, will show, etc is POINTLESS.

octaviancmb · Sep 06, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

I'm quite conflicted about Observer Mode. On one hand, I love the idea because I think it would be cool to observe the HoH match. On the other hand, I hate this idea because I fear it will be abused by guilds over TS/Vent. On the gripping hand, I hope they may be creating an Observer Mode for games that have already ended (think Warcraft 3's observation mode for watching a game after it's over); that would be the best of both worlds.

I'm equally conflicted about a toggle. I like the idea, as a player, to be able to prevent people from observing the match. However, I think if there is a toggle, there are going to be precious few matches to watch.

cmb

Chowley · Sep 06, 2005, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by octaviancmb

I'm quite conflicted about Observer Mode. On one hand, I love the idea because I think it would be cool to observe the HoH match. On the other hand, I hate this idea because I fear it will be abused by guilds over TS/Vent. On the gripping hand, I hope they may be creating an Observer Mode for games that have already ended (think Warcraft 3's observation mode for watching a game after it's over); that would be the best of both worlds.

I'm equally conflicted about a toggle. I like the idea, as a player, to be able to prevent people from observing the match. However, I think if there is a toggle, there are going to be precious few matches to watch.

cmb

Anet have stated there will be a time delay, it works grand watching CS matches on HLTV so should not cause any problems here

warped314 · Sep 06, 2005, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Builds aren't powerful just because of the skills everyone are using, but mainly due to the individual talent, teamwork and communication. If a guild creates a build, uses it alot, and others begin to copy it, don't you think that guild will know it (the build) better than anyone else? And thus, be able to counter it easily?

One and Two · Sep 06, 2005, 03:42 AM // 03:42

it takes skill to use a build correctly and win. you see so many smiters dying cus they suck. so many people make a solo monk and get owned cus they suck. so many people cookie-cutter a fotd build and die, cus they suck. then they go online and say that the build got nerfed. LOL.

Takkun · Sep 06, 2005, 04:24 AM // 04:24

ArenaNet is well aware of this problem when it comes to Observer Mode. But im not sure how they plan to fix it. I think they said something about a delayed observation time... But I guess this is why they haven't brought this feature out yet...

But when it does come to pass... were gonna have to get used to it... for instance becoming GOOD and not relying on skills alone to win.

UberRusty · Sep 06, 2005, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Builds aren't powerful just because of the skills everyone are using, but mainly due to the individual talent, teamwork and communication. If a guild creates a build, uses it alot, and others begin to copy it, don't you think that guild will know it (the build) better than anyone else? And thus, be able to counter it easily?

I am going to reply to this as if I was replying to all the other similiar posts. I KNOW builds aren't powerful just because of the skills. I mentioned that in my first post, and I KNOW, SOONER OR LATER, the skilled guilds will realise what kind of build you're running, with what kind of skills after repeated battles in the Guild Hall AND Hall of Heroes. But this doesn't happen overnight, it happens maybe after ten or twelve battles.

I can give another example. Remember the Fragility Mesmer thread that started it all? Before the thread, it Fragility Mesmers hardly existed. After the thread, Fragility Mesmers SWARMED Competition Arena (which I hardly play), and lately I've seen more Frag Mesmers in 4v4. IF, builds really takes that much skill to use, then all those Fragility Mesmers should be sucking. But why aren't they sucking? Because all you have to do is Karate Chop your board and get those spells off. Just like the E/Mo Smiter. Slap on your Zealots and Aura of Restoration, then Bal's Aura somebody and start spamming. Good builds are simple builds. Simple builds are good builds.

Here's where the arguement, I think, starts. If your guild is competent with running a simple build, you MIGHT improve upon it with more complicated things.

Trust me, if Observer mode comes out without a Toggle of some such, then these boards are GOING to be FLOODED with "WTF OMG NERF OBSERVER MODE PLX" threads, and I'll just simply say, "I told you so."

Snowman · Sep 06, 2005, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Paranoid, paranoid, paranoid!

That’s the only reason I can see why people would NOT want someone to view their game.

Lets face it.. everyone is paranoid, if they introduced this.. then guess what, you probably wont find ANY decent games to observe...and what a waste of all that programming.

I think this is the way it should work...

Competitive and Team Arena matches should NOT have any kind of restriction to anyone who wants to observe.

Guild Vs Guild, and if it arrives, Inter Guild Battles (Practise) should be accessible only to members of the guilds who are fighting. (and possibly a toggle to open it for public)

Hall of Heroes should be permanently available to everyone.. after all these are international battles to which EVERYONE has a vested interest.

I would just like to say another thing...

the most competitive and popular game in the world is football.... the reason why its so popular is due to the amount of people who watch it!...

Imagine if they were paranoid and didn’t want any on-looking rival team to learn how they play! what would they do? hold the game behind locked doors? lol! Exactly.. its daft.. the single truth is, the more people observing any game increases its own popularity AND competitiveness.

If I was to vote for anything I would say unlock everything for everyone!... and allow PVE to be observed as well... (at least if you then crash you can see how the team got on without you)